Friday Fodder

The gospel we preach shapes the kind of churches we create.
The kind of church we have shapes the gospel we preach.

Scot McKnight - A Community Called Atonement


Any thoughts?

Universal Election?

Dr. Thomas Talbott now joins our discussion on election. If the discussion was a puddle, Talbott would be accused of jumping in with both feet.

"Christian universalists insist that election is neither limited in scope nor conditional in nature; election is, after all, an expression of God's love for the world, the whole world, and God's love is neither limited in scope nor conditional in nature" (Talbott, 207).

Dr. Talbott is quick to point out that universalists would not agree with limited atonement, while at the same time, refusing the idea of conditional election that an Arminian might believe. Talbott argues from the following premises:
1) God is love (1 John 4:8, 16)
2) God is merciful to all (Rom. 11:32)
3) Understanding Romans 9 is based on how one understands Romans 11
4) Paul teaches not for limited atonement but for unconditional election and irresistable grace.

Due to space here, we'll deal with numbers one and two. Next week, we'll discuss premises three and four respectively and the responses.

As for God is love, Talbott points out that John Calvin didn't have much to say about the Johannine statements (1 Jn 4:8, 16). In fact, only in his commentary of 1 John does Calvin mention the verses in passing (nothing in Institutes). Recently, Reformed theologian J.I. Packer has discussed the verses in Knowing God. However, Talbott maintains Packer speaks of God being love not to unbelievers, but to Christians only (211). "Packer has stumbled over a text that he finds difficult to incorporate into his overall theological perspective" (ibid.).

In regards to premise number two, Dr. Talbott maintains Augustine was the first to make a distinction between God's justice and God's mercy. According to Augustine, because all mankind are descendants of Adam, all deserve everlasting punishment. God is a righteous judge but is also a loving Father. Mankind's rebellion seemed to put God in a predicament. He must judge, while loving at the same time. However, Augustine maintains, God selects some to receive mercy, while leaving the others to receive the justice they deserve (222).

Augustine's understanding of limited atonement is hard to understand based on Romans 11:32. For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all. (NRSV) According to Talbott, Augustine was notorious for trying to argue that all didn't necessarily mean all in this passage or in 1 Timothy 2:4. Augustine held the view that all meant some of all people groups and nations but not the entirety of mankind. This argument doesn't seem to hold weight in Romans 5. Talbott maintains Paul meant the entirety of mankind when he mentioned all (231 ff).

Next week, we turn to premises three and four and hear responses from Bruce Ware, Jack Cottrell, Robert Reymond, and Clark Pinnock.

Any thoughts here?

So Long My Gas Station Attendant

Just a few decades ago, I remember places that simply sold gasoline. They had a few snack items inside, but for the most part, they were established to sell petrol, and provide service for the machines we drive (wash the windows, provide oil changes, tire repair, etc.). When a vehicle was driven over the rubber chord, a bell rang, signifying someone needed the gas station attendant to "fill 'er up."

Sometime during my teenage years, the "filling stations" changed somewhat. There were islands closest to the store that were full-service. Customers could expect the same service as always. There were also outside islands marked as "self-service". Those choosing to "fill 'er up" themselves, could save a few pennies. The incentive for the customer was obvious, eventually leading to less employees for the business and the elimination of the full-service islands.

We've since moved to automated machines at the pump and the elimination of filling stations for the most part. Businesses have diversified offering staple items inside, while also offering self-service for gasoline. Many people pull to the pump, process a credit/debit card, fill their tank, and are on their way (all without fear of the interaction with other people). It's much like a NASCAR pitstop. If someone were hired by the store now to provide service to the customer (other than running a cash register) people would surely be skeptical of the motivation of that person or the business.

Society has now moved to self-service in general. "No one can put gas in my vehicle like I can. No one washes my car like I do. I can do this project , without any help, thank you very much!" This kind of "progress" is much to our society's detriment. Many find it difficult to accept anything from anyone else without strings attached.

The proverbial pendulum has definitely swung from one side (living within community) to the other side (the idea of self-sufficiency). We attempt to teach personal responsibility, while also teaching teamwork and counting on our neighbors. It's no wonder that those we lead are confused.

Anything to add/subtract? BTW, post #100 is now in the "books". Thanks to those of you who read and respond, despite the author!

A Healthy Addiction?

This week at our small group, we began discussing the "passages of thirst." John 6:35 reads, "Jesus said to them, 'I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty." This is one of the many verses we chewed on.

The group is growing closer each time we meet. We've had several conversations where opportunity abounds for differences of opinion - all done in love. This time, it was about addiction. Although there are bad addictions (these come to mind quickly), are there any addictions that might be considered good?

Here's my thought: When Jesus speaks of hunger and thirst, He's obviously speaking of those things that sustain and lead to real life. If one is so passionate about living real life, can we say that person has an addiction (this time, healthy) to something God ordained as good?

We sang a song called Breathe, during our corporate worship. The chorus includes phrases like "I'm desperate for you", "This (desire for God) is my daily bread", and "I'm lost without you." These phrases sound somewhat similar to the "hunger and thirst" verses in the New Testament.

The discussion among the group brought up some good questions. 1) Is there anything remote to a healthy addiction?; 2) How does one become so passionate about God and continue to live with their feet "on the ground"?; 3) Is it possible to share that love, passion, or addiction, with those around or do we leave the change up to God/Holy Spirit? ; and 4)If there is something of a healthy addiction for Christ, how does one get his/her fix?

I'm now off to do a word study. Thoughts?

Friday Fodder

I read church growth articles in several publications - even publications that are entirely devoted to church growth. There are many things that come across my desk claiming to be the "next best thing" to win people to Christ - oh, if I just had 40 days! Church growth companies call from time to time and offer something that will benefit my local church. (These groups are 500-1000 miles away. How do they know what the people need here?) "Everything is included for the low price of $999.99. It's guarunteed to have people beating the doors down to get into your place of worship."

Need a quick fix? Check out Church Marketing Sucks!

So here's the fodder? Lately, many churches have been accused of "selling out" all in the name of reaching people for Christ. In other words, church leaderships have bought into the secular idea of having the newest, freshest, or shiniest whatever. And when the church has the newest, freshest, or shiniest, it just makes sense to tell everyone about it. Paul said, "I have become all things to all people." But did he really mean selling out on the Gospel?

Isn't the Good News still good news? Doesn't the power of the Holy Spirit still work today? And if this is true (I believe that it is!), surely marketing the vision of a local church should still be acceptable. The question is how so?

What's a healthy balance between trusting the power of the Gospel and marketing? Any thoughts?

One Reformationist View of Election

Today, we return to Dr. Robert Reymond's view of election. If you haven't noticed, I was corrected (and rightly so) by Frank. Dr. Reymond has a P.H.D. from Bob Jones but is not on the faculty. Again, thanks for the correction Frank.

The last post on election had more to do with the Westminster Confession of Faith than I had anticipated. Although Dr. Reymond quoted much from the WCOF, it's now a good time to hear his own commentary.

Dr. Reymond argues from the Reformationist view of Calvinism. He uses the Pauline texts of Ephesians 1, Ephesians 3 (especially verse 11), and Romans 9 to articulate his point of God's election of certain individuals. The doctor attempts to convince the reader of a "logical" order of God's elements of salvation. Reymond also has much to say about the word "foreknew" (proegno) in Romans 8:29, going as far as defining the word as "set his (God's) heart upon" (160).

Dr. Reymond has very little to say regarding the Arminian view of election. The phrase "the Biblically informed Christian" will come to XYZ conclusion (Surprise! It always seems to be his conclusion.) is written time and time again. The essay is written to defend supralapsarian over infralapsarianism within Calvinism.

Dr. Cottrell is the first to address his concerns with Reymond. According to Reymond, every decree is made to serve the eternal purpose of God's salvation of mankind. For Cottrell, this idea sends up a red flag. "This means that God has decreed the fall of Adam and the ensuing sinfulness of the entire human race so that there would be sinners to redeem" (202). Others (the non-elect) are "passed over" or simply not chosen by God. These things happen by God's decrees having an ultimate purpose of God's glorification. Cottrell maintains, "To some Calvinists such a view of God and his decrees may sound like pious and glorious mysteries; but to most non-Calvinists it is the height of irrationality and moral contradiction and approaches blasphemy" (ibid).

Dr. Clark Pinnock offers his opinion as follows: "It would seem that the most important issue here (Reymond's view of God's determinism) is not the doctrine of election as such but the character of God" (203). He goes on to say, "Reymond and I both admire the awesome power of God...It is not the kind of power, spoken of in deterministic theologies, namely, raw power, the power to make everything else surrender...Surely the glory of God consists not in God's all-controlling power but in God's self-sacrificing love" (203-204).

Thoughts? Remember when responding that others will (sometimes passionately) disagree. Please respect those who agree or disagree.

Have You Heard? Do You Care?

I rolled out of a warm bed around 7:15 this morning. My feet landed on new carpet in our home. I made my way to the shower and received warm water to bathe. "Man it's good to have what I have!" I brushed my teeth and eventually made my way to a job where I lead a local church in reaching our community for Christ. Our church meets weekly for corporate worship. The hours are published and easy to see for everyone interested. We gather and serve our community at least monthly. We do these things without fear of persecution.

It's true that some may sneer or think how gullible we are for believing in One we can't see. But physical persecution is something we needn't fear. That's not true for many brothers and sisters throughout the world. Susan Wunderink posted yesterday at Christianity Today regarding the death of a sister. Gayle Williams was killed for serving those around her. It seems she wasn't evangelizing - technically. But the Taliban thought her to be a threat and disposed of her.

The tragedy that I think of includes Gayle. But also tragic is those of us who return to our safe places of ministry, employment, and even recreation, without knowing or caring about a faithful sister who was murdered for serving those different than she. I'm reminded of how much I take for granted, how blessed I am, and how those who God has placed in harm's way need our prayers for God's safekeeping. So tell me. Have you heard? Do you care?